The frum view of marriage isn't that marriage is an expression of love and commitment between two people. Marriage is simply and completely the start of a new family. Thus, marriage partners are selected based on their qualities for formation of a family rather than on their qualities as a mate for their partner. It is assumed that hormones will take care of the partner-vetting, and young singles in the yeshivish world are encouraged to think very logically when making their selection of who to date and marry. Sometimes, in fact, they are encouraged to force logic to overcome the hormonal or instinctive responses. Sure, you have fun being with him, but do you want him to be the one to raise your children? Do you want his values to shape your home? And of course, there's enough pressure on "older" singles (anyone over the age of 20) to drive some people into marriage simply not to be single anymore. I can't tell you how many people tell me they're getting married just because they can't stand dating any more. And that's on top of the people who threaten to get married for the same reason.
With family-building as the operative rationale for marriage, personal fulfillment fades to a far second. Of course, personal fulfillment is important for living life, but many experts have assured me that it's okay to find your fulfillment in other venues. The only reason to leave a marriage is to escape pain, not to reopen options for something better. Let's face it - how likely is it that you'll find something better? Once you're divorced, you're tainted goods, and your options the second time around are only other tainted goods. Of course, that might turn out to be a good thing - after all, no one is perfect, and these people's flaws are more visible than other people's. There's something to be said for knowing up front what you're getting.
For me, the issues come down to the same basics that have been there from the beginning: (1) My spouse is clearly not - and probably won't ever be - my best friend. His very presence is more often an annoyance than anything else, although I'm slowly adjusting by teaching myself to care less about his feelings. Wow; what a great foundation for a loving relationship! (2) His plan for his future is not what I want for my future. At least part of that is my shaken religious foundation due to my current situation. This was post-marriage news to me; before I got married, I was sincerely convinced that I did want a kollel-klei kodesh life. I still somewhere deep inside think it would be a good lifestyle, but I'm starting to feel like it conflicts with my plans for myself. (3) I don't like sex. Not with my husband, anyhow, and I have no way of knowing if it would be better with someone else. Even reading the X-rated stuff doesn't really turn me on. I just don't get it. I'm definitely starting to feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with me there.
So why aren't these cut-and-dried reasons to get a divorce? Well, I have no guarantee that I'd find a better match the second time around, and according to the family-building philosophy, my current spouse is ideal. Stellar midos, loves kids, happy to help with housework, doesn't want to interfere with my plans for my own personal development. I don't know that I'd find a guy with all these qualities whom I'd like better; in fact, it's unlikely: I have a feeling that the kind of guy I'd find more attractive would be less of a nice person. More confident, more ambitious, more strong-willed, more dominant. Probably not as a nice. Probably not as low maintenance. Probably less willing to put up with my dislike of sex, presuming the problem is me and not my partner. And the whole lifestyle/kollel issue - I have a feeling that it's not really worth focusing on; the issues are more personal and less ideological.
I'm going to leave this out on the blog for comment, but I've noticed that a lot of the commenting starts with the assumption that I'm anti-frum or anti-yeshivish. Granted, I'm somewhat bitter about the way my life is progressing, but I'm not off the derech just yet. If I was, I probably wouldn't be in this marriage anymore, would I? I wouldn't care. I'm glad to hear what you have to say, and I welcome your sharing your own stories, but please try to keep this from becoming frum-bashing. Thanks in advance.
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bi - what makes (your opinion) a "best friend" - a "best friend"?
ReplyDeleteIMHO - someone who gives you space, "listens" to you, is "there for you", shares some mutual interests, cares enough to be selfless when necessary... and from your writing - your spouse comes across as something quite like it.
Perhaps what's missing is you "allowing" that person to "become your best friend".
As for "sex"... that actual "sex" leave on the side for a bit for now.... QUESTION: do you like "closeness" - on any level - physical or emotional? If not, that may be a (THE) huge problem. If yes, why not try building from there... revealing inner emotions, sharing intimate thoughts... breeds closeness... and eventually... a caring touch, a pat, etc... As well, wanting to do something that brings another person pleasure (even though it doesn't necessarily bring you, for now) makes you feel closer to that person - as the GIVER. And it is a sweet cycle... whereas the spouse sees you trying, trys to do something nice for you in return, makes it easier to GIVE again and builds the relationship to a level where both learn the pleasures of the other - not necessarily the same "SEX" act, but perhaps, leading up to it...?(eventually, it may take time...)
And I agree with your assumption... that who you think "may" have been a better match - in terms of "physical attraction" - may come with an aggressive personality that would be difficult to live with... (so what would be the point? Great sex, great arguments - horrible existence?)
Remember, "tastes" can and do constantly change - from foods, to people etc. - it starts in the "brain" though... ATTITUDE.
One more thing... I highly disagree with your "frum view of marriage" NOT being about love and commitment. While of course, building a family is core too... if the first two things aren't there (LOVE AND COMMITMENT) I don't think anyone can be successful at building a true Torah'dig home, a true "Bayis Neeman Byisrael"...
Although, I think the order is in reverse (for the most part) first comes COMMITMENT, and then LOVE.
It really comes down to what YOU want from life and where you think you'll get your fulfillment.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, neither "frum" nor "yeshivish" have a monopoly on orthodox, or even ultra-orthodox hashkafa, weltaunshaung or anything else. If you find neither are for you, don't give up on HKBH, or Judaism - just find a Rabbi who speaks to you.
Just to focus for a moment on one of your points:
ReplyDeleteI really doubt that you dislike sex. It is very hard to enjoy sex with a person that you don't like. If you were to marry someone that you do like and that you do find attractive, then I think that you can safely assume that you would enjoy having sex with that person.
Love is one of the greatests feeling in the world. Love has inspired the greatest novels, movies, and paintings. You can and will find someone you love if you decide to divorce. Don't worry about sex, for now it's just a distraction from addressing your true feelings. Many people (including myself) cannot enjoy sex (or even perform) sex unless they truly love their partner.
ReplyDeleteYou only live once and seeking love is a very worthy ambition. It is part of our human makeup.
Don't worry about not liking the x-rated stuff. You're trying to hard, that's why it won't work. Anyway, most of that stuff is gear towards masculine very visual in your face tastes (though some women like it too). Read some subtly erotic romance literature instead.
ReplyDelete(You probably need a subtly erotic romantic relationship too)
On "Best Friends"
ReplyDeleteI am straight but I find that even with my female best friend, it's chemistry that makes it work.
There are some female friends that I have a lot in common in terms of ideals, interests and lifestyles, but I just don't find there presence rewarding in itself, like my best friend of over ten years, who is actually so different than me, whom I just enjoy being in her presence.
criticism isn't bashing, and criticizing the frum community doesn't mean you aren't frum (though I personally am not....) just as criticizing the state of health care doesn't make me any less a nurse.
ReplyDeleteSo here's my criticism... growing up yeshivish, i learned not to want what i really wanted or to feel what I felt, but rather what I was SUPPOSED to want and feel. The resultant confusion still plagues me today.
emotions in general are looked down upon... though emotion is one of the primary way we know ourselves and the world around us. many people criticize frumkeit that it is not rational. I criticize it that it is over rationalistic.
Of course non frum and non jewish children are often raised the same way, the difference is that with us, the entire society stands behind it.
I think one day you will look back and see how this experience led you to experience your own self, which is a very positive and healthy development. "I don't like kollel." that may or may not be a priority, but the important thing is that it's a true expression of self.
about your worry about something being very wrong with you "there" I also think that is a sign of something right. Your sexual withdrawal seems to be, at this stage, a true expression of self as well.
Unless that's really what you want deep down, (and I don't get that impression) growing into your own voice doesn't mean you have to go off the derech.
Do you think you're being fair to your spouse by staying married to him?
ReplyDeleteC_A, are you asking the question or making a statement?
ReplyDeleteFrom everything I've read on this blog, her husband appears, lulei demistafina, supportive and aware of what's going on. It would also appear that, at present time, he does not want a divorce either.
Divorce ought to be a last resort. No one should say, Well, I would have been willing to give it another try, but I'm going to break up for my spouse's sake.
YOu sound like my EX exactly. and you know what.. its not easy being single today.. (divorced) but he deserves to find someone that truly loves him, and you deserve someone that will truly light your fire.. so I am not pro divorce but in your case.. before children come.. (dont know if you have any yet?) its best to separate..
ReplyDeleteIf you've not got kids yet then divorce straightaway! I cannot advise you too strongly that YOU ARE IN THE WRONG RELATIONSHIP, and it will only be down from here. I know! What you wrote could have been me talking twenty years ago. Believe me - total romance, great fulfilling sex and amazing love and desire is a prospect for you BUT ONLY WITH A GUY WHO TURNS YOU ON. So for both your sakes DIVORCE NOW. I sincerely hope you are taking precautions not to get pregnant!
ReplyDelete....honestly, you seem a tiny bit like Estella from Great Expectations!
ReplyDelete