I am aware that I put too much weight on other people's opinions. I'm trying to get a better hold on what I want and use that as my sole decision-making criterion, but the habits of trusting the advice of those who should know better than me and of trying to win peer approval are strong. I don't know why I don't trust my own opinion more fully; I am confident of my knowledge and reasoning abilities, etc. I guess I always feel like I am missing a crucial piece of information, and I hope that someone else is able to see what I can't. Especially when other people have such a completely different view of something from my view - I feel like I must be missing something. It doesn't mean that I would change my opinion, but I want to at least know what I'm missing. Just in case I should change my opinion.
Obviously, one of the reasons I can't bring myself to take the step of getting divorced is the social censure I would incur. Over the yamim noraim, it was brought home to me clearly that there are lots of people who care deeply about every detail of my life. There's no way I could slip something like this by all those bystanders, and it would hurt them. But more - it would hurt me, because every time I would see anyone who knows me, I would see hurt and disappointment. I would have to go through the whole thing again, at least for a while, even if only to again justify in my own head why I did what I did.
But another reason I can't bring myself to get divorced and move on with my life is that my husband so clearly doesn't want to. What does he see that I don't? He is suffering just as much as I am, albiet in a different way. But this can't be easier on him than on me. And even though he keeps telling me recently that he's given up hope of things improving, he's still holding on. He told me he still loves me. No, I couldn't say "I love you, too". It would solve a lot of problems if I could.
I don't know what I want for the future. If I think about the afterlife, as I know I'm supposed to, then a frum house full of children seems the right way to go. The problem is that even knowing that, I still want to do all sorts of things that I know are bad for my soul. Is that just a salve for the pain, or have I really degraded spiritually to the point that I don't care? And do I care? But if I can't see a vision of my future, how can I make any decisions? Is my marriage a failure because I never dreamed of marriage - or even a wedding - as a little girl? Is the only way to make something happen to visualize it? That is so science fiction I might just believe it.
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I'm sure people have told you this before, but you can't live your life based on what other people think of you.
ReplyDeleteA household of Jewish children growing up in a home where they parents are unhappy is far worse than none at all.
Divorce is awful, yes. People talk. But they will get over it far faster than you will be miserable if stuck in a marriage that just isn't working.
You know, the thing about "other people being hurt" is just a feedback spiral: They are hurt because they think you are unhappy, and you are hurt because you think they are hurt.
ReplyDeleteI would not necessarily take this factor into account.
If you divorce, you become "different" (some people call it "an outcast", although it is not that bad any more).
I come from the outside, I am a Gioret. And I found divorced women so much more welcoming, so much opener towards people like me.
They do not fit the mold any more. They have to go to work. This means: they cannot pretend that the world outside the "shtetl" doe not exist and that people who do not belong to their group are just ghosts (look through them, ignore them).
So yes: it is hard. But you get used to being frowned upon (believe you me, as a Gioret I know what I am talking about, I got it from both sides). And suddenly, you discover a tremendous liberty. You do not have to be afraid of other people's opinion (it's bad anyway). Let me tell you also that some people might surprise you in a positive way. This might be an opportunity to discover who your "true friends" are...
I've been reading your blog for a little while now, and your last post confirmed what I have been thinking - that you really want a divorce but arent getting one for social reasons. You just have to cut your losses, get out of this unhealthy relationship and start over. You dont have to feel like your options are either have a career and do things you enjoy or have a family. You CAN have your cake and eat it too.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in response to your earlier post about making decisions with your mind, this is exactly why every person starting to date needs to know 1. the facts of life (surprisingly, many dont until they start chosson/kallah classes) AND 2. that they must be physically attracted to someone before they can marry them
seems so basic, I know.
I don't think divorce is the answer. I think there is no answer.
ReplyDeleteAs the child of an unhappy marriage, where my parents stayed together "for the children", I can say unequivocally: GET OUT!!! My parents are both great people, but watching them continually and unintentionally hurt each other throughout my childhood was incredibly scarring. I remember wishing my parents were divorced from a very young age. After my youngest brother left home my parents did divorce, it was a relief but the damage to us had already been done. My siblings and I have had great difficulty in building healthy relationships. Learning how to positively and lovingly interact with my husband has been a difficult journey because I never saw those behaviors modeled in my own home. If you stay with a man you don't love it will be a selfish act. Your children will not thankyou. I know maybe hard to hear, but it is the truth.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you want to do that's so bad for your soul?
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know they are so bad for your soul?
You didn't answer my question, so I reread and found the answer myself.
ReplyDelete"I want independence, graduate degrees, to travel the world. And I want a husband with excellent midos who is a talmid chacham and wonderful children who will be my pride and joy."
What is the contradiction?
How exactly does traveling or a university degree conflict with good midos?
Children? What's the problem? Even Hilary had a child. Soinstead of ten, you'll have two or three.
I have news for you. Outside of Bais Yacov and Lakewood, University Degrees, and traveling, are considered 100% normal, not deviant. And I do mean by people who are totally frum. And I bet some of them have excellent midos too.(Frankly I believe had I grown up that way I would not have OTD'd...)
So here's my advice.
Call your travel agent. Today. Stop agonizing. Start doing. Pick yourself up, get on that plane, and go.
And oh yeah, find yourself a couple of supportive friends first, the type who also think this is a totally normal desire.
You've never taken my advice yet, but maybe this one is doable.
As far as I know, you don't take my advice, but maybe it will help someone else listening in
Gioret - What an interesting perspective. You are so right!
ReplyDeletefrumJD - So basic, and yet so foreign to the average BY girl.
OTD - Love when you say things like that!
Kisarita - I value hearing your opinions; they seem very well-thought out. In particular, this one is good. But here's the reason why it's tough to implement: I have a job. I don't have hashkafic problems with travel or education. I have travelled, and I have an education (and no, I don't mean Raizel Reit. I mean four years in a real university.) But to go back for a graduate degree would either require paying high tuition or quitting my job to go to school full time so I could get a fellowship. Both will cut my income considerably, and I'm the sole income in my household. Yes, I resent that, even if I know the ideological reason I originally signed up for it. Travel is also expensive, but that's not the biggest issue - it's getting time off from work. And also, I don't like to travel alone, and my husband (a) doesn't like to travel and (b) probably wouldn't be the best choice of companion for me right now. And my single friends don't understand why I'm not going with my husband (I've tried setting up trips with single friends), and my married friends want to go with their husbands (tried that too). Which leaves me with organized tours, which are SERIOUSLY expensive, but I'm getting to the point where it's probably worth it, but then again, since I want kosher, the other people on the tour, and the designated points of interest, may not quite match my preferences. Any further ideas?
Yup, that is a pretty list of obstacles. And some of them promise to be quite challenging. But the important thing to recognize is that they are practical questions, and need be addressed in the practical realm. Tying them to moral, spiritual, existential issues (like whether or not you deserve to have a good middos) will make them insurmountable. Especially since those issues are only tangentially related.
ReplyDeleteI know. I've been there. I wanted to travel for so long! Now I want to pursue a doctorate.
And I'm not married, not frum, no children BUT, I have EXACTLY the same concerns as you. Time. Job. Money. EVERYONE has to deal with that.
About being the sole earner, I highly doubt you signed up for that... why don't read your ksuba just to check what it says inside. In any case, it won't last for long. Have you noticed yet that very few men stay in Yeshiva into their thirties? My father and ALL my brothers left before that age. (Sem teachers tend to overlook that point when trying to convince you to marry a kollel guy).
This is more or less parallel to their peers in the modern orthodox and non orthodox world- the majority of guys only begin to get finanicially settled in their late 20's and later. Many Yeshiva guys reaching that age gradually realize that they're ready to grow up and be men. They lack the education, but some of them make up for it with guts and creativity... though, the way you've described your husband he's not the type).
Anyway, I don't know where you want to go but I'll tell you what worked for me. I wanted to go to Africa and was scared to go alone, but befriending Africans here got me personal invitations! (BTW the first time I went to Africa I kept 100% kosher).
But yeah, I do see a difficulty implementing this strategy in your situation.
Ki"S
After reading this post it appears to my mind that you are finally coming to terms with your situation. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that even if in your mind you still want to do 'bad' things. So you might come to terms that your marriage is not what you wished it would be. I don't beleive anyone is 100% happy in a marriage. There is always something better out there in the big world and wishing for it would make anyone miserable. Heck, I am a guy and I wish my wife had double DD breasts does that make me a bad person? I don't believe so; I just don't say it to her face, and I've come to terms that I am luck to have what I have. WIshful thinking doesn't make a person happy. Be happy with the fact that you've got someone to go home to. That should make you appreciate your husband. Down the line you can tell him how you feel about what you don't like and maybe he will change for you maybe not, but at least have the rappaport.
ReplyDeleteSo if I understand you right, if you divorce, your husbund looses his livelyhood?
ReplyDeleteNow I understand better why he wants to stay married.
But shouldn't it be the other way round? Does the ketuba not say that he will feed and clothe you and your children?
So from an economic perspective, you would be better off without him...
Dump him, dear...
You shouldn't take into account those other people's feelings when deciding on divorce. They don't have to live your life. Only consider you and your husband. You'll probably have to move etc. after divorcing.
ReplyDeleteAnd if he is just hanging in because of what other people would think if he divorced then don't take that into account either. And as someone mentioned he is dependent on you financially. He needs to get a job then. He really should have gotten one already as I think you would respect that kind of man better from everything you've written.